Skin-on-frame definitely has its drawbacks, but the single most positive thing about building this way is the ability to evolve designs. We build boats, you give feedback, the design changes. My last Mariner inspired skin-boat went through two years of design work and got worse and better throughout the process and is still being designed. The SC-1 is in its infancy so I decided to post my conversations with students. These are unedited and provide an unusual transparency into how the kayak is really handling and how I do design work.
Note: I also didn’t edit out my criticisms of the original Coaster, or to be fair, my criticisms of my own boat. The original Coaster is nearly a perfect kayak. Most of my performance changes are endemic to the skin-on-frame medium. Some of them are good and some not so good. I would not want anything said here to be interpreted as a negative commentary on the original Coaster, and if Matt and Cam ever start selling them again, by all means, buy ’em. I like mine better but that is just because I like how a skinboat feels much more than glass.
David Harry (fiberglass Coaster owner):
Chris and I have been out a couple of times together with our boats. The first trip was more of a shakedown outing in Yaquina Bay, primarily flatwater, but later in the afternoon we ventured out beyond the bridge into the jetty area where we found some smaller (2-3′) breaking waves in a mild ebb.
I paddled the SC-1 for only a short while. Keep in mind I’ve paddled a good number of sea kayaks, but never before a SOF. I’ve heard many others speak of how SOF boats flex, but I’ve never felt it. What a difference! I hadn’t bothered to adjust the footbraces, or make any other adjustments, I just climbed into the cockpit and launched. The boat edges nicely and allowed me to carve turns much like I do with the Coaster. There was a steady breeze of about 15 mph, and while paddling across the wind, the tracking also felt much like the Coaster, meaning that I could use edging to easily keep the boat going where I wanted to.
Chris is still working on outfitting her boat. She had used duct tape to affix her thigh hooks and get a feel for placement. She had also placed a couple of folding thermarest pads along the the bottom of the hull to sit on. In my Coaster, you may remember that I have some substantial foam for my hips and thighs. Even without the extra outfitting, the SC-1 seems to fit me fairly well. The shape of the Coaster’s foredeck makes for a very roomy feel once in the boat–which is a good part of the reason I want the outfitting! But once in the SC-1, my knees fit comfortably up against the skin. I don’t know the reason, but it certainly feels like a more secure (snug) fit (a slightly lower foredeck?, or perhaps because I was sitting on foam pads on top of the frame or?).
Yesterday, we paddled at the mouth of the Alsea River, launching just west of the bridge from a small beach near the Howard Johnson motel. We first paddled towards the mouth and found some bumpy water. I headed out to find more (in the Coaster) while Chris stayed inside and played on the bumps. Later on, before the ebb got too strong, we paddled upstream on the north side and swapped boats. This time I adjusted the footbraces and the feel of the SC-1 felt even better than before. I did a few rolls without problems, except that I again noticed a difference in overall flex–especially with my knees pushing against the skin of the foredeck. Later on, as we paddled back downstream, the ebb had picked up and I had a chance to surf some smaller (1-2 ft) standing waves in a rip–it was great! The SC-1 felt very much like the Coaster in these conditions–great tracking, no tendency to broach, good edging, etc. Finally I turned around, paddling as fast as I could straight into the waves–I was just trying to see what the feel of the ride would be like. Of course the nose easily rode up and over these waves, and the overall ride was smoothed by the flex of the hull.
Cheers!
Dave
Dale Kitchens:
Here are pics of our maiden voyage yesterday. We had strangers on the jetty and banks taking photos of us…so the kayaks must have looked good. I am pleasantly surprised at how well these boats perform, especially with my heavy arse sqwatting mine down. Stability is just right, perfect handling in wind(12-15kts) with no weather or lea pointing. Tracking is excellent altho leaned turns could be quicker, yet sweep strokes brought it about nicely. I’ll probably appreciate the tracking in bigger conditions. The boats are fast and easy accellerating with a comfortable cruise speed (est 4kts) easy to maintain with euro paddles. We are letting the G paddles dry out a bit before we try them. We will carve a couple of spares when I dig up some nice cedar boards. Saundra loves her SC-1 and is very proud of her accomplishment. Her experience of first time out echos mine…very happy with these sweet boats. The tote from car to put-in and back is a joy. Hoping to get our float bags soon, so we can go out on the sea and really put them to the test.
ME: Thanks for emailing me, I’m glad you liked the kayaks and your assessment of them echos my own. These perform close to the original without the irritating stability but also without as powerful of a leaned turn, leaned turns still happen but only about 65% of what the original did. The reason is the keel. But like you said, a little coax with the paddle brings it about nicely, and in a strong wind the same will happen. If you hold the gunnel right at the waters surface she comes around easily, up or down wind. What will really jazz you is how this boat was designed to fit perfectly in the trough of a wind chop. There are fun times ahead!
I thought the tracking was a bit much but it really helps on a wave or in a following sea. Keep me posted on any thoughts or suggestions and I am very glad you like the boats. All feedback is welcomed. I enjoyed having you and Sandra at the barn, tough class, but still fun. Thanks for coming and building boats.
DALE: I took my Tempest 170 out on the Chetco River today and found that the damn thing was a pain to keep going straight without putting down skeg….winds were 12kts. I much prefer the stiffer tracking of the SC-1 for all-round enjoyment of the paddling experience. I can still turn the SC-1 when I want to and yet not have to fight the changing breezes. I think I’m getting spoiled. I took out a friend’s F/G Coaster(seat was too tight and too far fwd) a couple of days ago and found (for my size) the initial stability was just fine and when leaned quite turny. It was quite a bit looser in dir stab espec in following seas and with qtrg wind. Coming in over the Chetco bar, I had to rudder and sweep to maintain hdg. I much prefer the tighter no fuss tracking of the SC-1. I really don’t see why people have to paddle long/heavy kayaks when for 90% of their paddling the Coaster/SC-1 will do a better job. My 18′ Force 4 may be heading to greener pastures.
DALE: My 2 cents on increasing the carving ability of the design: rocker up the aft line of the keel starting from 3′ fwd of the keel/stem to end with 3/4″ vertical taken out of the keel at the stem. Also, dropping the height of the chine at the stem an inch or so. I am willing to experiment on this end by building more SC-1s. There are 2 more guys interested on building them down here. I will email you after some open water and surf time tomorrow.
DALE: I paddled(w/euro paddle) my SC-1 out around the headlands of Port Orford yesterday. W swell 9 ft, 3 ft windwaves, 20 kts of breeze with reflecting slop. Unlike my other kayaks, I could enjoy bobbing in the soup or paddling thru it with only an occasional bracing stroke. Stable and comfortable, yet with a gentler, organic interface with the waves…and no slapping sounds. The considerable breeze had no effect….it didn’t point up or down in beam and qtrg winds(don’t need no stinking skeg). I still had to sweep to turn it, yet for these conditions, the tighter tracking felt good. Very easy getting short rides on the windwaves….the 13+ft length fits into the trough nicely. No broaching or purling tendancy on a few swells I surfed that were breaking around the point…easy to control with rudder/stern brace. More surfing later this week on the flat sandy beaches of Crescent City. This is one sweet boat. The only reason to have a plastic or F/G boat is to carry lots of crap and run up on rocky beaches. Speed doesn’t seem to be an issue.
Yesterday, leaning way fwd and pushing on the outside foot peg while edging did improve the turning, so wanting a little more turnability, I have now moved my sitting position fwd 1.5 ” and will take off the wood rub strip. Moving the tracking/turnability line a tad towards turnability will make this boat perfect for me. I’ll let you know if this helps.
ME: I’m so jealous Dale, today the swell is 10ft at 13sec and makes that soft rifle crack sound when it hits the sandbars offshore, I’ve always considered that the sound of personal injury so I’ll be paddling the bay today….again, sigh. We have no sheltered launches. It’s beachbreak or nuthin. I might use one of my “less bad” hike in launches sometime this week. This is a decent option with a skin boat but you still have to contend with the full force of the break wherever you land. The thing I like about the SC-1 is the ability to get up to speed on a peeling wave and then turn straight downwave when it pitches, outrunning the initial impact and avoiding the worst of the spinal repercussions, though you still get swallowed by the foam. I registered 20.5 knts on a gps doing this, (and subsequently killed the GPS doing this). It’s a little scary for bigger waves because of how late the boat drops in, and how it doesn’t broach out the back, but that’s not really the point of this kayak anyway. Stoked to get your reports and keep me posted with any insights.
DALE: John and I took our Coasters out today to celebrate my 62nd birthday. The tweaking (moving my seating position forward 1.5″ and trimming the rub strip down to a thin rounded shape) has shifted the handling to very closely match the F/G Coaster. Much more “turny” when edged, with the tight tracking loosening up…allowing qtrg and beam winds to cause some weathervaning. Moving my seating position forward got me sitting a little higher because of rib placement, thereby reducing the initial stability noticably. I will remove one of the foam pad layers and see if stability gets back to where I like it. How much was CG shift and how much was the thin rounded rub strip? My sense is the rub strip was most of it, yet I will evaluate again after resetting the back band to the original position. John took his turn in quiet waters and really likes the boat. I expect he will send you his comments. Still tweaking and having fun. Surfing trials this weekend. I tried the G paddle today inside the harbor…a little strange, yet I’m sure these things take some time getting used to.
John Day:
I got to try out Dale Kitchen’s freshly made boat today and was impressed. I have a Coaster built in 1985 that I purchased about three years ago and it is my favorite all around kayak. Your design is very similar in looks and handling. Good Job! I have been so impressed with the Coaster that when I hear of someone that I know thinking of getting another kayak, I try to get them in my Coaster before they make a decision. I tell them that they need to take the Coaster out in busy conditions and see how easy it is to lay their paddle down across their cockpit and relax, even when they are surrounded by chaos! If I can get them to do this, then I tell them to look for those same qualities in whatever kayak they are trying out or deciding to purchase. I really like what you’ve created. Hopefully, and with enough room in my garage for another boat, I’d like to build your design sometime soon.
